Emerging Boldly: The Unforeseen Journey to Entrepreneurship with Jemma Fairclough-Haynes - E102

Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome, welcome, welcome. You're tuning into the Lead to Excel podcast, the hub where science meets leadership and transformation begins. I'm your host, maureen Cheyanna, founder of the Mindsite Academy, a trailblazer in the world of neuro-leadership, I'm an executive neuro coach, leadership transformer and a neuroscience enthusiast, dedicated to empowering leaders, entrepreneurs and changemakers like you. Every week, we delve into the heart of neuroscience to discover how you can unleash your potential, master your brain, manage emotions yours and others alter behaviors and exceed expectations. We're here to help you not just to survive, but thrive and flourish in the fast-paced world around us.

Speaker 1: 1:02

We're about to kick off another high impact episode today, diving into a topic that is powerful, intriguing and has the potential to shift your leadership journey. It's time to elevate your leadership, to excel, and so higher. Let's dive right in. I am so excited to be back again with another podcast, and today I have a dear friend of mine I can call her a friend because I've known her for so long and this has really been something I've been wanting to do for quite a while. Gemma, thank you so much for coming on to Lead to Excel podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:45

Thank you, it's a pleasure to join the podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:50

Thanks so much. Gemma and I live in the same part of the UK, which is in Kent, which is the most beautiful part of the UK. I must say, gemma, could you just introduce yourself briefly and tell us who you are? And just a bit, because we are going to have an interesting conversation today.

Speaker 2: 2:12

Yes, my name is Gemma. I'm a faircloth Haynes. I am an entrepreneur. My main business is orchard employment law. We provide employment law and HR services to business. We're based here in Kent, but we serve businesses nationally and even globally. We have a few clients abroad as well. I've been growing that business for eight and a half years nearly nine years, nine years this year and, amongst other things, my personal life. I'm a gospel singer, I am a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a friend. So yeah, keep myself busy.

Speaker 1: 2:52

You do, you really do. Thanks so much for that, gemma. I know you said you're an employment lawyer, you're a gospel singer and it's interesting that you've got clients within the UK and out which I love to touch on actually quite a bit. But let's go back a bit to young Gemma. So tell us a bit about you, about your background and you know, because I want us to kind of understand how you got into law. So tell us about your childhood, about young Gemma.

Speaker 2: 3:24

Yeah, so as a child I was inherently shy. In fact, I still tell people that I'm a shy person. What I should have mentioned as well and I've introduced it myself is that I'm also a public speaker and then so because I'm a public speaker and because I sing, sometimes people think there's just no way you can be shy. But I am inherently shy and I wouldn't like that as a child very much. A watcher would watch what's going on, but if you put me on a stage, I do what I needed to do.

Speaker 2: 3:55

I was, you know, I found academics fairly easy. I would say, you know, not everybody can say that, but I found academics fairly easy and I used to use school as my. It was the thing that I could control and lean into. So I really enjoyed going to school. I grew up in the Midlands, so although I live in the garden of England now in Kent, I usually say sunny Kent, although this time of the year is not very sunny.

Speaker 2: 4:21

I grew up in the Midlands, which was wonderful in lots of respects and very multicultural society.

Speaker 2: 4:30

I'm on the Jamaican heritage, so it was very buoyant in terms of culture.

Speaker 2: 4:36

My friends were from very diverse backgrounds and I really enjoyed being part of that cacophony, a mixture of people, and growing up that was quite nice and I think that helped in being able to explain things to people even now. So you know, I talk to people from all walks of life and I think those early years of being able to speak to people from different cultures or whose parents didn't speak English as a first language has helped me in my latter years. And I have and had a huge extended family. When they say it takes a village, you know more like a city with us, but I have an, I have a huge extended family whom I spent lots of time with. We're dotted around, but primarily in the Midlands, and so you know I spent lots of time with my grandparents, my cousins, my cousins and my siblings, my aunts, my uncles. I'm the oldest child and I guess I can even be the oldest child that has had some influence on maybe you know the way I think about things or the way I behave.

Speaker 1: 5:48

Thanks so much for that, jama. You said something that I want to pick up on. You said education was something you found easy and it's something you probably you know. You you mentioned the walk you could, you had control over. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2: 6:05

So my parents split up when I was quite young and there was lots of moving around as a young child, but I felt like going to school was something that was mine and I could control. So that was. That was an environment where I felt, you know, entirely secure. I could own that. I loved to read.

Speaker 2: 6:24

I was, I was saying, one of those children I don't know how many of those children there are I've seen someone the other day but I used to read the dictionary for fun. I love language, so I would sit by the, the dictionaries and I would read those in my quiet time at school. So I lent into it and I had the most amazing head teacher in primary school, mrs Pipe. She was a lady from Barbados, which again was really unheard of those times, because she was a female head teacher, which was very unheard of, and she was a black head teacher, which was very unheard of, and she just loved me for some reason and she put me forward for for everything.

Speaker 2: 7:03

So, even age six, I remember narrating the school play and apparently that hadn't been done before by a six year old the whole school play, narrating it from start to finish, from memory. So I just learned the script and and and narrated it and it was really under her direction. You know little, Gemma, you can do this. That gave me some of the encouragement to to be able to do that.

Speaker 1: 7:26

That is amazing, I think, one of the things you said there. You know the head teacher. When you started talking about her, I just smiled because the impact that teachers have on children is just phenomenal. People don't realize it. You even remember her name. You're talking about her and you could see your face even being when you started mentioning her. But you see, I love the way she gave you. She believed in you and that has probably propelled you even more. That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 7:57

So, gemma, in terms of talking about this whole aspect of control, I find it fascinating because there was a bit of chaos from what you're describing outside, you know, in terms of home life and all that. But you found an area that you had control and you really went for it and that's so powerful in terms of, even as adults, what we can do. A lot of times, people focus on what they have no control over and when you do that, you keep going down that rabbit hole because you don't have control. But I love the way you focused on what you had control over and I want to find out a bit more. How did you manage to even do this? So what kind of gave you the?

Speaker 2: 8:49

I don't know to be honest with you, because I was so young, Talking under the age of seven, I did this. I was so young and I don't think anyone said to me take ownership of the things you can control. But I just did. I had the confidence of giving to me by my mom and my head teacher and the teachers, and so I just lent in. Really, I think I thrived on praise and they were very complimentary the teachers and the head teacher and some of my family and so I lent into that phrase and I can do more of this really.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Yeah, I love the fact that you said that praise made a difference and it's so powerful because when you praise, it's that dopamine, isn't it? You want more, you want to do more. How did your mom actually help? I know we've talked about your head teacher, but what impact do you feel? So my mom has?

Speaker 2: 9:47

always been overly I say overly very encouraging. Anything that she says I can, you know I said I wanted to do, she would say yes, you can do it. Even when, I would know, get down. She probably didn't think that she would say yes, you know, if I said I wanted to be an astronaut, she'd be like well, and you can absolutely do that. You know, even when I set up the business, I remember going to her and saying mom, I'm giving you know, I'm giving up my job and I'm just starting a business. And she said yes. Her face said no, but her mouth said yes. The only thing she said to me is are you sure? And then I said yes and she said okay, I'll support you.

Speaker 2: 10:25

And I think having that belief helped to give me belief in myself. Yeah, but I want to be transparent about that. You know, I had one parent who was incredibly supportive and one who wasn't. Yes, and I know that for some people they would adopt the more negative and be like well, this person said I can't and so I won't. But I thrived on praise and so I lent into the praise and you know they were both equally powerful in terms of their voice. It's just the voice that I chose to listen to.

Speaker 1: 11:01

Wow, that is something. I love the fact that you really made that point, because a lot of times we forget that there's possibly a negative voice coming, which could be from anywhere. It could be from friends, it could be from society, it could be from bosses, anywhere. But I love the fact that you brought that up. So, two parents, but one was positive and the other was the opposite, but you chose to lean into the positive and it's that affirmation, the praise. Thank you so much for sharing that. So how did you? You know you went to school and you know what were you thinking of becoming at that time, and how did we end up in law?

Speaker 2: 11:42

Yeah, so why law? You know it's quite interesting because as a child I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I don't know how. Apparently there was a program, something with the old Bailey, my mom says.

Speaker 2: 11:55

I always used to look and say, mom, I'm going to be, I want to do that, I want to be like that. I, although inherently shy, have got really strong sense of justice. I've always had that strong sense of justice. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not so good, but I've always had that, always had a strong sense of advocacy for others and I'm very argumentative, you know. You know, and I love the detail and I've got a good memory to. That has helped. So I always knew I either wanted to be a lawyer or a singer, because I usually say music is my first love. I knew I loved singing from a very early age and I either wanted to be a lawyer or a singer and honestly I could have gone down either route.

Speaker 2: 12:44

And you know, age 14, we moved to Kent. By then I was singing in social clubs. I had someone approach me and offered to be my manager. I was told that, you know, I could go to Sylvia Young's. My mom, being from an immigrant background, was not on board with that. You were like I will drive you well, not personally drive you, because she doesn't drive but she's like I will take you to these social clubs and I will. You know, you want to sing at weddings and whatever. Fine, but your education is the key and that's what's paramount. That's something you can do on the side or afterwards, and so I then thought what, if I can't do that one thing I love, I'll do the other thing that I love, which was finding out about the law.

Speaker 2: 13:29

So yeah, it was an interesting journey and, again, should be totally transparent. Most of my teachers were on board. Most of them said yeah, this is what you need to do and this is how you do it. I did have one teacher in the Midlands, surprisingly, which is much more diverse place than Kent was when I was growing up. Teachers say you won't get to do it, you can't afford it, I think you should think of something else. But he didn't know anything about me but, yeah, he was very negative. He was like think of something, lower your gaze. Actually what he said. He said lower your gaze, I think you should think of something. And I went home and I remember telling my mom about that. The next day she was in school.

Speaker 2: 14:14

The very first day. But again I chose not to listen to that one teacher and lent into the teachers that said I could do it. So it was a very straightforward journey Because I knew what I wanted to do. And if you know what you want to do, it's much easier to get there.

Speaker 1: 14:36

I think the fact that you are so, I think you've been very focused on what you want and when you want it and making it almost like you kind of paved the way for yourself that this is something I can control. I'm going down this path, you know. I want to touch on the fact that you said you were inherently shy or quiet as a young girl, and it just shows that you can do anything you want In spite of the way you are, because, like you said, you're a public speaker. I want to kind of understand now I'm going to come a bit to the law later, but I want to understand how you've been really shy has come out in things like public speaking, maybe when you were starting to get into public speaking, or when you went into law and had to maybe go to court or something or even talk to clients. How has that come out and how have you been able to manage it?

Speaker 2: 15:38

So, although being inherently shy, I've always been a performer. So you know, and I've always been into music. So I started playing recorder age four. You know violin, saxophone. I sang very much, would be a performer, but when I was doing those things it's like I'm somebody else. So it was quite easy to go on stage and to sing a song, either as a solo or part of a group, or to play a tune on the saxophone or a melody on the violin and then step off the stage. That's always been okay for me to do and I've done it from such a young age.

Speaker 2: 16:16

We had in the Midlands an organization which would help children from African and Caribbean descent in terms of their schoolwork on a Saturday, that's, after their school, and they also would do things like on shows and go out cultural things. And I went to that as well and we were always performing. It just, it was just like going to school, it was no different, we would just always performing. So again, that led itself naturally. And then when I started going to church and they asked me to join the praise and worship team as a backing singer, I just did that because it was another element of performing when they asked me to believe that was a different matter. I was like, oh my goodness, there's just no way I can do that.

Speaker 2: 17:02

But once I start singing, I just focus on the thing that I'm enjoying. And the same with once I start speaking, whether that's, you know, whether I'm advocating for a client or whether I'm public speaking I just focus on the thing that I'm enjoying, which is the talking, the delivering, the information is like, you know, helping someone. What I don't like is when I come off the stage. That's the thing that I, even now, after so many years. You know I'm fine, I'll speak to 4,000 people, it's fine, that doesn't bother me. But sometimes I just want to be unseen. When I come down and and it's you know you feel people gravitating towards you. So you know, I manage it, I overcome it. I don't think anyone would ever notice that from the outside in. But again, being totally transparent, that bit, that bit, for me is the fear factor, rather than speaking to a sea of people.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah, that's, that's really great, and I love the fact that you mentioned this, because I think even people listening this is so important because what you do is especially when you mention that when you focus on the subject at hand, you focus on what you're speaking about or you focus on the client. It's that focus is taking the focus away from focusing on the actual matter at hand instead of focusing on the fear, because a lot of times, what really cripples people is when you focus on the fear things that can go wrong but almost is that your ability to get into a role that really helps, and I think it's just something that is so powerful that everyone that is listening should really practice, because it takes you away from you, in a sense, and and diverts or distracts your brain or focuses your brain on the thing that you're speaking about, on the thing that you're comfortable with or the thing that you enjoy, and then it then the fear, then has to go away. But you're right, though, when you then come off, you come back. Yeah, just help us. Then, gemma there, yeah, no, I totally identify with it because I'm quite similar, you know, very quiet as a young girl, very shy actually, but you say, I think for me the reason I asked you was because I sang in the choir but my voice, you know, I was always in the middle, so that my voice doesn't come out, because I don't have a singing voice at all, but I just enjoy singing.

Speaker 1: 19:30

But I think for me, when I then went into teaching and I had to do a five minute presentation, I think that was one of the first times that I would say that it was very public in front of people I did not know. Oh my God, gemma, I nearly fell over, my knees were shaking and I was horrible, but I kept. I pushed myself to continue and I'm so glad I did, because that actually helped me later, even when I got into speaking. It really helped.

Speaker 2: 20:02

Yeah, and I think you know and even as a mother I encourage my daughter as well is it's inherently shy. People don't think and people don't believe that she's very good at, you know, putting on that front, but she is also inherently shy. But I gently put her into situations where she'll have to speak, even if it's one on one, because I think that's life. If you're going to have interviews, if you are going to have to speak to a doctor about a particular concern, it's something that you need to help you, Even if you're not public speaker. It's just something that you need and in the earlier you can start it, the better. That really is what has helped me, because I started that so early.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Yeah, yeah, that's so true, and I love the way you said you do that with your daughter, and I hope we have time to talk about what you've actually how you've nurtured her into even getting into business at such a young age, and I think it's just incredible because, you see, I think that having that skill as a young child, even for you, you can see playing out as an adult, setting up your business. When you then go to speak to clients, you can then get into that role and do what you need to do, as opposed to going and forgetting everything you were meant to be saying. So no, that's great. So, gemma, why employment law?

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yeah, I hadn't been interested in employment, though you know, wow, when I got a bit older and started to think even more about law, watching things for myself, I was a fan of a show called Allie McBeal, which was quite a ditzy young lady, but she looked fabulous, and I like fabulous fabulosity, if that's even a word, you know I like my shoes and I love that.

Speaker 2: 21:47

And she. I think what I liked about her was she was so feminine and delicate, but yet this powerhouse lawyer, you know, whereas everything else I'd seen, if people were powerhouse lawyers, they didn't have that femininity and that delicateness about them. So I wouldn't say I was delicate as Allie, but I like to think I've still got some of that feminine energy going on there. And so, you know, I always wanted to be like her and I wanted to do corporate law and I saw myself working in the city and I saw myself, you know, wearing a suit, because that is all I had had ever seen. But it's very difficult to get into corporate law and to do it well, you know, beyond this with you, you know, law is like a funnel. There are thousands of students and then only so many get this far and then only so many get this far. It's very difficult.

Speaker 2: 22:35

So one of the jobs that I got when I was studying, when I got the bar part time, was working for the insolvency service. Before that I was a language mentor at school and a friend of mine said there's a job at the insolvency service. I think you'd be really good. And I said, okay, I don't really know anything about it. But make sense, I'll have a look into it. They wanted someone with a law degree and it was good. It was interesting. I got to go through details of bankruptcy and again, I am inherently shy but I'm also inherently nosy and being able to look through details.

Speaker 2: 23:12

I thought, oh, this is interesting, and my boss at the time had seen something in me, and within a few months he was like I think you should do further investigation to. What the further investigators do is they look at companies where you know people are doing things that they shouldn't do, phoenixing, resetting up companies and not paying their debts, or just behaving incredibly badly, which leads to businesses collapsing. And I did that for companies and really enjoyed it. I became pregnant with my daughter. My husband and I had planned for me to be pregnant, and so I told my boss and I had enough money to survive until I knew I was going to go on maternity. We'd also recently bought a house, and so just everything seemed right at the right time. Well, within a couple of weeks of announcing that I was pregnant, I was then told I'm going to be made redundant. Wow, yeah, that was quite horrific, you know, because I hadn't planned.

Speaker 2: 24:13

We never had savings money is something that I'm really still just learning about and so it just came at the wrong time, and whilst I was looking for another job, I came across a job as an employment law paralegal with a sole practitioner. I went for the job and she said to me I don't think I can afford you. I promised her no, you can, you can. I promise. You know, I just want a job, I'll stay. She was totally right. Of course, she knew that the moment that something better came along, I probably would have gone for it. And she said well, why are you leaving? I thought, lady, I don't eat pies. This is a baby. This is a baby, isn't it, you know? I said I'm pregnant. She says oh well, that's not right. Why don't you? You know, look at this, this and this and consider pursuing your employer.

Speaker 2: 25:05

And I looked at it and didn't really do anything with it. I thought I just I haven't got time for this. My main focus really is trying to get another job and at the same time it became quite unwell. With pregnancy, I had preeclampsia which resulted in my daughter being born almost two months early. I was in hospital for a month before that, so it wasn't my focus, but it had just sewn the seed.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Really, employment law A little bit interesting, you know. I think you know. If there is anybody who is considering a legal career and you are younger, some of the things that you need in everyday life, like property, land law and employment law, seem boring. I've been honestly right about it boring, but actually you need it in everyday life and when you start to use these things they become interesting, you know so. So I, you know I have left that job. I was made redundant and I stayed at home with baby for a while and then my mum actually said to me oh, I've seen, this job is for employment law and it's working from home. And this is 2010. This is before working from home was a thing, was a thing yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:15

You know the company is based in Manchester. I think you should go for it and I'm kind of like. You know, this belief in me has gone ridiculous. Now I don't know anything about employment law, you know. This unwavering belief is just ridiculous. That's so cool, though I love that and she says oh, you can do it.

Speaker 1: 26:35

Dress up, so we need that.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Everyone needs a JMS mum in their lives, I know, but sometimes I'm like, come on, I mean, it's not the same thing, this is not what I've studied. So I distinctly remember I put on these red patent patent shoes and I had on the dark suit and remember saying to my husband you know what, if nothing else, they're going to remember the lady had on red shoes. I know everyone else will just dress. You know, according to the brief, yeah, we did black shoes.

Speaker 2: 27:07

I was like they're going to remember the lady with the red shoes and I went into the interview with a panel of two and the woman was, you know, she was smiling at me. I think she liked my shoes more than anything. And the guy, he just looked so perplexed, he was like what are you doing? Here he's like you're the least qualified. You've got no experience. Do you even know what an ET1 is? An ET1?

Speaker 2: 27:29

is a claim form and I was like, no, but I'm teachable. I literally sat back and went huh. So you know, a couple of weeks later I got before saying Gemma, I don't know what you were doing there and I'm thinking this is going to be. You didn't get the job, he goes, but you've got fire in your belly. We just like that. You're tenacious and you're teachable. Obviously, we can't offer you the salary that was on the ad, but we'll take you on as a trainee. And so that's what I did. I started as a trainee and developed a love for it. To be fair, I really enjoy what I do.

Speaker 1: 28:13

That's fantastic. A lot of lessons there, actually, because it's you know, we hear this all the time and I see it in my job, where a lot of times people rule themselves out. In fact, I was talking to someone recently and you know about it going for a job and she said, see, I'm being realistic, I won't get it, so there's no point, and that just automatically she's ruled herself out. I love the fact that you are not qualified. You didn't know anything about it, but it went there with that belief that you know what I would go, but at least, if nothing else, they'll remember me, and that takes the pressure away automatically. And the fact that you even said, see, I'm teachable.

Speaker 1: 28:58

It's that confidence. And the confidence comes when you don't put the pressure of oh, what if I don't get it, what if this, what if this? It's just going, you know what, I'll do my best, I'll just be me. And that just relax. I'd say it relaxes your brain. Then your cautious brain can kick in and do its thing, which is just being free, just being normal. And that's when not gets all real powerful things come out. Because telling someone that you're teachable when you really had no clue about the role, yeah, yeah, oh, that's, that's really great. So you went into this. How long were you in that role for? Oh?

Speaker 2: 29:39

about four years not very long, about four years. I did really well within that four years, you know, within six months they put me up to the salary that they applied for. Wow, six months. Yeah, I had quite a few. I had a good mentor though, you know, to again being totally transparent. They assigned me a mentor who was really good.

Speaker 1: 30:00

I knew that Was your mentor in the company.

Speaker 2: 30:03

Yes, but again, this is from working from home. Before working from home was a thing we didn't even do. Zoom I didn't do. I don't even think Zoom was a thing or if it was, we didn't know about it. We didn't do telephone calls and sometimes he would meet me in London for a coffee and I'd take my file with him and we'd talk about things like my cases, or sometimes he'd come along to my cases with me. But because I was interested and I'm an avid reader and learner, that's what I did. I learned in, I read and I learned and just really enjoyed it. You know I did make mistakes along the way. Of course. I remember losing my first case and probably shouldn't have lost it. The case was good enough to win but I wasn't good enough to at that stage to win it for them. But I.

Speaker 1: 30:50

What impact did I have on you Losing?

Speaker 2: 30:53

Yes, I don't like to lose, I don't like that. Well, I just have to work harder next time. And that's why I would look at every detail. You know, the next time I'd be like oh okay, I didn't know that. Well, now I'm going to look into every detail. And that's really where I think I come into my own in my role is, I love the loopholes. I love, you know, there's aha, but did you know that I love those things? So, yeah, it's all in the detail.

Speaker 1: 31:26

Yeah, thanks so much, emma. So you know, I asked you that question because a lot of times when you know, that could easily put somebody off the fact that you know you came in on the back foot, you don't really know much, and then you've done a case which should have won and then you didn't win and it starts playing on your mind and then it just hinders progress. But what you said is I don't like losing, so now I'm going to make sure that I do everything I can, cross all the Ts, learn as much as I can, and it's learning from the experience as opposed to the experience crippling you. So, yeah, thanks so much for that. So how did you then navigate into opening your own business?

Speaker 2: 32:08

Because that was never on the cards. You know, because that's a risk. Come from quite a risk averse circle of people and you know, yeah, that was never on the cards, but I have to be there a little. While I was at risk of redundancy and my boss the same one who hired me for my tenacity he said oh, gentlemen, I'm gonna meet you for lunch. I started out of them and he says we're making redundancies is from Liverpool, hence my accent. You know we're making redundancies. I said ah, now I remember I've been made redundant before.

Speaker 2: 32:42

Yeah, when I had my daughter and got into awful debt, you know, I didn't, I wasn't able to find another job actually want for the restoration of my pregnancy, and then I became ill and it just set us back. It took us a good few years to to catch back up and I think that fear Just sent me into okay, well, thank you for letting me know. He says you're not gonna be made redundant. No, I said okay. He says but you know, because this is what we do, I've got to send you a letter to say you're at risk. So I says oh, okay, now I had one, a case on a technicality against a solicitor in Kent and he had said admin, you really liked it. You know the people think you're at each other, you're not good fun, become friends.

Speaker 2: 33:29

So as we left the courtroom he was like good, good job, you know you're on LinkedIn. I just said yes, I wasn't, didn't know anything. I said, yeah, he said that Meal LinkedIn. I said okay. So when home set up a LinkedIn account yeah, have no picture it the LinkedIn account did me more mischief than good, because what would happen in If you in it would? People would be looking at my, you know, as I was an employee, but people would go look me up and go my briefs rubbish she's. She doesn't have any experience or anything because I haven't filled out the LinkedIn. So in some ways it probably would be better not to be on there. But okay, so I, I just connected with him and I think I had two connections him and one other person. So when I heard that I was at risk of redundancy, I contacted him. I sent him a message and said hi, don't if you remember me and I beat you.

Speaker 2: 34:22

And then and then, and he got any jobs going and he said I do remember you because that was that was a good one. That was, I don't have any jobs going but I could offer you a platform to start off on your own if you like. And I thought, no, thank you, I don't like. I know I need security. We are a two-salary household. This is very important to me. Thanks, but no thanks. You know that's very polite about it. I said thank you, but no, thank you. I thought I'll just wait and see what happens with this redundancy situation. And you know, true to my boss's word, I wasn't made redundant, so I continued to work. But again, it continues to become more experienced and so what would happen is I would get cases further afield. So when I started, I I know that everything's about relationships. I don't know how I know that, but I've always known that and, unlike some of the other advocates who could be quite mean to the clerk, I was the clerk's best friend. I was so nice to them. I'm like hi, mike, how are you Tell them everything about me? They know I've got a baby, they know I've got a toddler, and he would try and keep me in the location, the locality, which would mean I could get there and back in a day. You never had to do for two days and because my contract said I could be, you know, I could go away for two weeks if I needed to. But because I had this good relationship, I would always stay within the vicinity. Well, once the way, once they made this the first set of redundancies, I'd start getting calls going. Gemma, there's no one else that can do it like with your level of experience, but you and I would do it, because what I was contracted to do so but to I had that relationship with the clock to know that he was. If he's given it to me, there's no one else. Anyway, a year later I was at risk of redundancy again and I've got that same call. Hi, gemma, this time of call not gonna meet you, just telling you you know you're at risk again. He actually said you're our star girl, don't worry about it, but you're gonna get the letter. So I thought, oh, okay, fine, I'll wait for this letter and just see, see what happens. I got the letter and I panicked because that's again. I recall how I felt when I was made redundant. Mark, I was pregnant. It comes back does have that situation again.

Speaker 2: 36:45

So the first lady remember when I pregnant I said I went to be a paralegal for a year I wanted to be a paralegal for I found her email and emailed her and said got some experience. Now I can see your business has grown. How about you take me on? And I got an email from someone else saying this lady sold the business. Why don't you come in for an exploratory chat? And I said, okay, I didn't know. One exploratory chat was about it. Okay. I said okay, yeah, sure, fine.

Speaker 2: 37:14

So I went in and that turns out it was an interview, but a lot of questions were around. So how will you bring in business? And I Did you have your red shoes on? No, no, no, I don't remember what color shoes I would have had on, but they weren't red. So he said well, you know his questions were around how will you bring in business? And, like, in my role, I never had to do that. I was given 25 to 30 cases and I just worked for them and I was like I took that knife.

Speaker 2: 37:44

He said well, we like our staff to be more commercially aware and bring in some of the business. He said also, have you thought about starting on your own. What strange thing to say no. He says, well, why don't you? But you do know we'd be in competition, right, because this guy was in Kent as well. Yeah, he was like no such thing as competition, you should consider it. And I really just thought, you know, if I'm not, if you don't want me, just tell me, I can take it. But sort of smile and said, okay.

Speaker 2: 38:17

He said also, your CV is really rubbish. He said if, um, because he asked me to send it to him. He said if I just looked at your CV alone, I won't be talking to you. He said but you know, when I'm speaking to you, I realise there's so much more to you and the only reason why you're not getting this job is because you haven't got that commercial awareness. He said I'll tell you what you haven't got the job, but I'll redo your CV for you. And he did add that. What a nice thing to do. He redid the CV. He sent it back to me. So if you are looking for jobs, you'll find something.

Speaker 2: 38:50

This is based on the information he had gleaned from me, and you know what I learnt from that was and even now, I'll get someone else to do my copywriting and say what do you think of me? Not because I really get concerned about what people think, but I've noticed that we tend to think less of ourselves or not be able to pick up on some skills and attributes. And he showed me that someone else could do that. So I didn't get that job anyway and thought I'll just see what happens. And I wasn't made redundant. And at that time my husband was going do it, do it. And I was like no. So anyway, the third time round, another year later, I got called again saying the same thing Hi, gemma, you're our star girl. We're making redundancies, you're not going to be made redundant. This time round we're doing interviews rather than just selecting people. So they probably got their fingers burnt in the last two redundancies.

Speaker 2: 39:47

I said oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 39:50

And I just started to think well, I wonder what if? I wonder what voluntary redundancy is? And I realized I've been holding onto the security and thought but one day I might not be the star girl. Like what if I just fall out of favor? And also because they kept getting rid of people. I was then going further and I was then becoming more experienced. I'm going to Scotland now and Northern Ireland for a week and I've got a young family at home and I couldn't go to. You know, my daughter had a school play and I remember her saying to me I said oh, you got your school play tomorrow. And she said children with their filters. She was like are you actually going to come? Are you just going to send auntie? And you know, they know how to hit me there. And I thought, well, at least you've got auntie to come and she loves auntie. But it wasn't. It wasn't mommy.

Speaker 1: 40:38

It wasn't mommy it wasn't mommy.

Speaker 2: 40:40

And I was like oh, so I just started to think about the possibility of taking voluntary redundancy and sending an email saying what's the voluntary, and they ignored it, so I sent it again with a read receipt.

Speaker 2: 40:52

It got read. They ignored it and then I thought I'll just go to the interview. Then I went to the interview. I was giving all the right answers. I know because I was getting you know. You know I could tell from the body language. And you know, it was almost like we'd we'd nudge, nudge and then at the end of every interview they would ask you, have you got any questions? Okay, well, I said yeah, what's voluntary? What's the voluntary package? And he said you don't need to know. And I said no, come on, what is it? What is it? Is that a terry? Are you giving them the house package? And he says you don't need to know. And I says this is my strong sense of justice getting me in trouble. I said, well, we both know that if you're not even willing to consider a voluntary package, that means you're cherry picking people and that would be unfairly done too. So you might as well just tell me what the voluntary package is.

Speaker 2: 41:50

And in that instant I was like I felt them grace, I his whole face behavior changed and he went how much do you want? And in that moment I knew there was no going back. Yeah, you know, even if I had changed my mind Exactly and there was no going back. So I named a figure I forgot all of my training, you know named a figure which was nowhere near adequate and he said you need to be gone within 10 days. And I was like, oh okay, you know. Fine. He said don't tell anyone, don't tell your clients, I had cases. Don't tell your colleagues. You can drop the company car, drop the car back. We'll get you a train ticket to come back from Manchester. You need to be gone within 10 days. And that's what happened.

Speaker 2: 42:38

And so by that time I thought you know, this job security thing's a bit of a myth. I might as well give it a go. It was never really meant to be forever. I said I'll try it for a year. I didn't have a year's money, so I don't know why. I said 12 months. I'll try it for 12 months and see what happens. And yeah, all the rest is history. And still here.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Wow, wow, that's incredible. That's incredible, I think, in terms of the final push to find out the package. How do you mentally prepared yourself that you hadn't?

Speaker 2: 43:13

No, I was simply. You know, like lots of people say, oh, you're so brave, and I say I was just looking, I've lost my footing. I was looking over the edge of the cliff. I had not prepared myself. I hadn't really thought about going into business at that stage. I thought I'd take the voluntary and I would maybe get another job. Perhaps I hadn't, I just thought I'd ask. I just thought I'd ask, but I knew I've been quite a good reader of people quite early on and I knew there was no going. I knew in that instance, no going back.

Speaker 1: 43:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's that's.

Speaker 2: 43:49

I suppose it was time it was time for you to do it.

Speaker 1: 43:52

It's definitely it was time. So now you set up. You started in business. You had no commercial experience, but I think one of the things you said before was that you know how to build relationships. So how did this play into you setting up in business?

Speaker 2: 44:08

And you know, if you just bring us to how you set up a few challenges, because I can imagine how many there will be and where you're at now Well, the first challenge was that six months prior to having this conversation about redundancy, my husband and I had agreed he would go into self-employment, and so that coincided, actually set up his business on the first day I set up mine, you know. So the first challenge really was how you survive on very limited funds. You didn't really have savings other than what I'd, you know, requested, which was not adequate. So that was the first challenge. And then the second one was how do I meet people? So, okay, fine, I'm good at building relationships, but I've never networked. I didn't know what. I didn't know what networking was. I didn't know what a Chamber of Commerce was. I literally very, very green.

Speaker 2: 45:05

And my neighbor had built me a website. That wasn't what he did, but he could dab all. He built me a website. I knew I needed a phone. I got 30 business cards that's what I could afford, just 30 here, 30 business cards and honestly I thought the phone was broken. I thought that's why it's not working, the phone's broken.

Speaker 2: 45:23

And I was talking to my neighbor and I was like you know, it's been a couple of months and I'm getting quite worried and she said why don't you try one of these business breakfast? And I said, oh okay, I didn't know what that was. I probably should have asked, but I didn't. I said okay and just went back home and Googled business breakfast and what came up was the Chamber were having the, but the Chamber of Commerce were having an event. They'd have that classroom international, where they would have, you know, people exhibiting and I thought that was a chance for me to sell my business. I must have been very irritating, because I know when I have a stand I'm selling to the people on the stand and the people at the pace of the stand. So I went along there, you know, with my 30 business cards. It felt good, it was a good feeling that moment.

Speaker 2: 46:16

And in the process they had this women in business speed networking and I just thought, give it a go. I sat down and I spoke to two ladies, lisa Settle and Grace Kelly, and they just took me under their wing. I was very, very shy and they invited me to a meeting in Rochester, a women in business meeting, and I went along to that and at the time it was a small group, maybe not even 10 people. But I thought this is amazing, you know, getting to get in some help. I treated it like studying, you know. I was like this is amazing listening to people. And it was only like 10 pounds. I thought I can afford that. I can afford 10 pounds of meetings once a month. And then Grace had said to me at the end of the meeting you know, do you like Indian food? I'm a big food. I said yeah. She says come out for an Indian tomorrow at this time. So I thought I had a client.

Speaker 2: 47:10

Actually I went home said to my husband I think I've really made an impression. I've got this client put on some nice shoes, went for the Indian and turned out I wasn't that special. There were 30 other people. This was networking. So you know. I sat next to some people. I said what are you doing? This is what we do. We eat and we get to know each other. And I just asked lots of questions and then I started going to as many free or cheaper networking events that I could go to. I would take a notebook I've still got all my notebooks and anything with 10 minute speakers would say about social media or bookkeeping or anything, I would just write it down. I thought what a cheap, great way to learn. So it came as a surprise to me that you know some months in, someone then asked to speak to me. I thought it was in trouble and said can you represent me? And I was like wow, oh, wow, yeah, wow. So yeah, continue to do more of that. Really.

Speaker 1: 48:12

Oh, fantastic. That's amazing Because I remember meeting you. This probably was about in fact, I remember hearing about you before I met you, and this was probably about seven years ago and I was told have you met Gemma? Do you know Gemma? When I was going for networking meetings and I'm going, no. So when I met you I went, oh OK, this is Gemma, and I think one of the things that I noticed you did really well then was networking, and I love the fact that you were going there to learn, to meet, but also to learn and I think that's so powerful. I think what's really come out a lot in what you're describing is your hunger for knowledge, and that is so powerful, Because once you're open to learning, it becomes easy to pick up things as you go along. That's really amazing. So now you're a team of how many? Five, Six? That's incredible. That is really incredible. No, honestly, well done. So who do you work with typically?

Speaker 2: 49:24

So small and medium businesses are smaller businesses, the micro business. They'll come to us for ad hoc advice, but we also work with charities and other organizations that have got 300 to 400 employees, because people sometimes bring problems. So you know we support them on their day to day advice their documents, but also try to do not. Representation Okay.

Speaker 1: 49:47

So, in terms of represented, you just represent organizations or do you represent individuals as well?

Speaker 2: 49:53

Just organizations.

Speaker 1: 49:55

Yeah, okay, organizations, okay, that's cool. And then I know you also do quite a bit yourself in terms of public speaking. So who, what do you typically speak on and where do you go, just so that if there's anyone listening that wants, yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:10

So a few things really. One is my journey, because we discovered today you know, everybody's journey is different and sometimes you can learn things from that. So I don't go and tell people you should do and you shouldn't do. I just share my experience and hope that somebody might learn something from that. I talk about being a woman in business because I'm a woman in business and some of the things that I experienced and have overcome or have embraced and enjoyed entrepreneurship and, of course, anything that is around employment law or people, because that is what I do. One of my popular talks is I call it the three season employment law, which is conduct, contract and current updates.

Speaker 1: 50:49

Wow, Thanks so much, Gemma. So, Gemma, for people who are listening that want to contact you or need you, can you just give us an example of what the process is like and where they? Can you know how they can reach out to you? I'll put everything. I'll put all your details in the description as well.

Speaker 2: 51:09

So I do quite a bit on LinkedIn. So if you find me, gemma, you can find me there, connect with me and send me a message there. Alternatively, you can email my business at info at whatchiffinformantlawcouk.

Speaker 1: 51:28

Thank you so much, gemma. So I think I've got one more question that I want to kind of push a bit, because you've described a lot about your journey, which is incredible in terms of you didn't grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth. You really grew up from it. It came from a challenging background, but you've made it to where you are today, and how have you passed this on to your daughter just quickly? And I really want to bring this up because I think women, parents need to realise the impact that they can have on children.

Speaker 2: 52:09

So I think you touched on it briefly and mentioned that my daughter has her business. She crochets and she's very much been a part of my business from the age of five, really, Partly because I didn't have childcare, so she would come everywhere with me, even networking. I would bring her with me and I've always explained what I do. So why are you doing this? I'm doing this because of this. Do you want to be a part of it? If she wants to, I give her a small pocket money, but if she wants to have extra money, she has to come in and do the shredding or the designing of YouTube thumbnails, and I imagine that just being in that environment has helped her to do her own business and very fortunate in that I now have a number of business friends, so she's not just learning from me, she's learning from you and everybody else she sees and she's asked them. You know we'll ask them questions. So, yeah, we're in a similar position in that sense. Yeah, how old is she? She'll be 14 next month.

Speaker 1: 53:12

That's amazing, I think just that mindset, knowing that she can, is incredible, because I see, you know, I always say that the adults that you know you see in the organizations today, it's true, it's the brain that they are wired with as children, that they bring into the workplace. So you see a lot of people who are risk averse, people who struggle with change, a lot of issues, but if you can really give this to kids at a young age, it makes such a difference. Thanks so much, emma. So I'm going to wrap this up and just say one of the things you did say to me, I think, when we were chatting about this podcast originally, was life does not have to be perfect, and if you just use that to wrap up and give us some word of wisdom in terms of what you meant by this and just bringing up everything you've talked about to this, would be great.

Speaker 2: 54:07

I think, you know, I've had challenges all the way through my life, from a young child, young adults and employee. You know, and even as a businesswoman, if you lean into the things that you can lean into, or even use those challenges to propel you, I think it's even more powerful than not having those challenges. You know, sometimes people say to me if you could do the business again, but start with that, you know X amount of thousands of pounds, how do you think you'd do it? I'm like, I really feel like not having made me go out there. You know, put myself in those uncomfortable positions of having to speak to people and, yeah, I really think that they're not having, and some of the not so nice experiences actually propelled me to do better. So, yeah, don't think that you have to come from a family or have lots of funds in order to to succeed.

Speaker 1: 55:01

Exactly. Thank you so much. I think it's so powerful to realize that you can start from anywhere and any situation and achieve what you want, and the fact that what you've described for us today every year to be told that there's redundancy and having experienced had a bad experience before, it's almost like your brain is in constant fear. But you chose not to be that way. You chose to. You know, yes, it comes, but then you could do something about it. What are you doing? Making the most of this situation? And that bit that you really pushed to find out the redundancy package, I think is just incredible. It's interesting, but again, you embraced it. It happened and you went for it and yeah, no, you've really shared your whole self with us today and I really appreciate that.

Speaker 1: 55:56

Gemma, thank you so, so, so much for coming on to Lito Excel podcast listeners. I'm going to put Gemma's descriptions down, so if you want her to come and speak at your event or if you want her in terms of employment law, please do reach out. Gemma is amazing. She really, truly is. Thank you once again, gemma. Thank you.