SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hi there, Mauriciana here, founder of the Mindsight Academy, Euro coach to executives, leaders, entrepreneurs, and a neuroleadership trainer using insights from neuroscience to help you deliver results by learning to work smarter, be in control of your brain, manage yours and other people's emotions, change behaviors, flourish and exceed expectations. I am so pleased to be back here with another episode of Lead to Excel Podcast. And today I have a special guest with me, Alicia Collinson. Alicia Collinson is a lawyer and she is a lawyer with a difference. And I cannot wait for you guys to meet her. So Alicia. It's great to have you here today.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited. I can't wait to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

So Alicia, could you just tell us a bit about yourself? Yeah, of course. So I'm an employment solicitor. I work at Thrive Law. We're based in Leeds. We are an employment law firm. That's that's what we do. But we um specialise in mental health and well-being in the workplace, and we've won a lot of awards for our diversity and inclusion initiatives. So that's where we're kind of breaking the mould and trying to be uh a bit disruptive. We're also not like other law firms. Um, I came from a very kind of corporate background, a very kind of work until you drop kind of vibe. Um, and Thrive isn't like that at all. Um, we're very kind of flexible working, we're like just a big team and a big family, we're not very hierarchical at all. So yeah, we're um we're a bit different. And um we've I really love that we have real values that align with my personal values as well. And that's a big reason why I joined Thrive, it's because actually I saw a firm that was trying to make a difference in in mental health, make workplaces more inclusive, make workplaces better. Because let's face it, workplaces the way you spend the majority of your time. Uh, even if you are working from home, you're still answerable to your employer for all that time. So um I think if we can kind of try and work together and do something that stands for making workplaces and making employment better, then that can only make the country better and make people happier overall.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Alyssa, that is absolutely amazing. And that was what really attracted me to speaking to you and connecting with you when I met with you, because it's so true. It's not often you see a law firm that is into well-being. I, you know, I have so many friends that are lawyers, I work with law firms, and you you guys really stand out. And the name thrive just says it all. So it's you know, it's so good. So let's talk about well-being and mental health in the workplace, because in what I do, it's one of the things I see a lot. Um, the issues with mental well-being, issues with mental health, and it all stems from how people don't manage their emotions properly or how people are managed. So, from your perspective, I think I've got to the first question I'll probably ask is what got your what got Thrive Law into really being um so focused on mental health?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

So that's partly kind of where our origins are. So Jodie Hill, who set up Thrive, um, actually had a mental breakdown herself in her old fern. So she set up Thrive deliberately because she recognized that this was an issue that A, the law firms themselves weren't catering for enough, but also something that is a very big legal issue and a growing legal issue because um because mental health conditions can amount to disabilities, so therefore there are things that workplaces and employers could or should be doing, but there's not a lot of communication around that. There's not enough kind of being proactive around that as well, which I think is so important. What we see less, but what we used to see a lot of was people was things going all the way to tribunal level, or people getting into really, really bad places with their employers, or really horrible things happening to the employees or the employers getting absolutely at their wit's end because they never understood the issue at the beginning, or they never realized that they had to put reasonable adjustments in place at the beginning. And so part of the reason why Thrive was set up so is that so we would have an opportunity to be more vocal about that and talk about that more and make that clear because employers' obligations to mental health are quite they're quite complex, but they're also equally as straightforward as they are complex. So once you've established that that person does have a condition which has a substantial impact on their life on a day-to-day basis, then you have to support them, you have to put adjustments in place. And if you start thinking about how to do that in the first place, then you won't get to the point where you hopefully where you even need lawyers because hopefully you've already supported those persons enough so that you don't then dismiss them accidentally for a discriminatory reason or their their performance doesn't kind of devolve so much that you feel like you have to look into that properly. So that's that's why Thrive is mental health focused, is because mental health is such a huge part of our lives personally. I mean, between Joji and I, I mean, we talk a lot about our own personal stories and why we kind of why it's important to us, but equally it's because it's important to for employers and it and it makes sense. It's one of those things that to me, I just think it's second nature. If you make sure that your employees are happy, people are more productive, they're gonna stay for longer, you've got better employment retention, you won't be paying sick pay when you don't need to be. It just makes sense to me to be a supportive employer with all things mental health and well-being.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

That is so spot on. It does make so much sense because when you really take care of people's mental well-being, or even when you help them understand how they feel and why they're feeling that way and what they can do about it, it changes everything. And you know, I've seen so many employees really struggle with conflict, with misunderstandings, and these things are not dealt with properly, which then, as you said, it then escalates and becomes a mental health issue. So, how do you work with organizations to actually help them understand what their role is and how what they do can make an impact on their on their employees?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

So a lot of it is is the kind of education side of what we do. So we do a lot of of kind of speaking events, we talk a lot, we do a lot of webinars, we're associated with a lot of different kinds of companies that do host kind of podcasts or webinars or all kinds of things, seminars for lots of different people. So HR and the kind of business decision makers at the top, but also the employees who are going to be the ones who are going to be most impacted. So if they recognize that actually I am entitled to be vocal about the things that are wrong with me, then it's kind of pushing from both sides. Um you you have the employees who are going to increasingly realise what they what they need and what they're entitled to ask for without being detriment, subject to a detriment because of it. And you have at the same side, you can have the the actual business decision makers and the HR people, and you can say actually legally you have to do these things as well. So it's kind of trying to find that balance. I think something that has really brought me a lot of positivity is that a lot of the time when you're talking to business owners and kind of decision makers at the top, sometimes you do have to do it strictly on a financial basis and literally be like, if you support A, if you don't support mental health, you're going to get sued. And B, if you um if you B, if you start doing it earlier, then you're going to save money because people are going to be more productive and people are going to be, you're not going to pay sick leave, all that kind of stuff. But I do increasingly see that actually they're engaging with this conversation, not because of all the financials and the business decisions, but because they recognize that it's important, because they either know someone personally who have has had mental health struggles, that maybe even them themselves have had mental health struggles. And I think that's also why it's really important to just talk about it more and be open and honest. And if you expect that both at all levels of a business, and if we had a society where we don't have this stigma around mental health, and people felt free to just say, This is how I'm feeling, this is what I'm struggling with at the moment, then it would make that a lot easier to break down and figure out, well, how do we help?

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah, I like that actually, because I think that's one of the issues I've had, especially because what when I'm dealing with um organizations or training them on emotional intelligence, a lot of times I find that there's some resistance initially, but once they understand the importance it has, a lot of people do open up. So I I do really see what your what you mean. But you know, one of the issues that I've found as well is that a lot of people still struggle. I would say a lot of managers in particular still struggle with how to relate to their team or to their team members effectively, especially when there's that conflict, you know, there's a lot of um, for example, let me talk about diversity because I know that's one area that you guys do a lot on. And I always feel that once you understand how diverse people are, how unique people are, and you're able to deal with them in that um perspective, it does make a lot of difference. It does help them to be more productive. So, for you, in terms of what you do, how do you now link well-being and diversity in the workplace? Because I feel that these are really connected, but how do you actually help organizations really see how these two are really linked?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, absolutely. And that's actually what we've won our awards for there. So when we when we talk about like our awards and diversity and inclusion, they've not been, we obviously do do a lot on the kind of because if you think about your surface diversity issues, it tends to be pregnancy discrimination, race discrimination, and and women gender inequality. But actually, the reason we win a lot of our awards is because we do so much work on mental health, because that is a factor in diversity. It's about inclusion, it's about inclusion for people with disabilities and inclusion with people from all backgrounds and with all kinds of conditions, and as you say, taking people as individuals, everyone has their own story, everyone has their own kind of struggles, everyone has their own reason why they are the way they are, and that includes mental health. And so a lot of what we say when we say actually we want a diverse workplace, that doesn't just include people from of every gender and from every from every background, it also includes every different disability so that you have a fully accessible workplace. And then obviously, when you're talking about every disability, you're talking about mental health as a very big part of that because you you're you know, your your people with mental health conditions like bipolar and and and depression or anxiety or whatever else, they can easily amount to disabilities. And if you don't have a workplace that's accessible for them, you're shutting yourself off to a whole group of whole group of people, and also things like ADHD and neurodiversity, autism spectrum disorder, all these kinds of things, they can also amount to disabilities. But those people can bring you, can be really amazing employees if you support them properly and give them the right opportunities. So that's kind of how how they are linked because ultimately to us, we think if mental health is a disability and if having a diverse and inclusive workplace includes disability, then it's an obvious just kind of path straight through into the same, the same kind of it's almost part of the same conversation.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Absolutely. I I totally agree that it is part of the same conversation. And I like I love what you said about you know, everyone is unique and they can bring in, you know, so much to the organization. For example, people with ADHD. If you really take time to understand people and know their strengths, they can bring in so much. And they're okay, let's now look at people who actually don't have any diagnosed disability, yeah, but are being impacted or their mental health is being impacted by what's going on in the workplace. Because sometimes what I find is that people are struggling either with you know things that are happening at work and not really being able, and not talking about it, so they're really suppressing a lot of emotions. This then comes out as stress and anxiety, which then leads to mental health because that's the way the brain works.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Now, how do you, how would you, or what would you say to organizations in this sense? Because a lot of times when this cut, you know, when the at the point at which they're actually complaining or going to HR, it's actually escalated a lot.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Yeah. So it's that's really funny as well. It there's a few things. So I think communication is key. And I I mean, I'm I'm of the thought that you should always just have an open workplace. I think the the days of having a hierarchical structure where you can't possibly go and speak to that person because they're off limits and you have to go through your manager and whatever else, I think we should start to be moving away from that because I don't think it benefits anybody. Because actually, if the person at the top doesn't know what the problem is with the people at the bottom, how are they ever meant to help that? And if there's a million and one different levels of bureaucracy in between it all, if there's never any line of communication there, and the person at the top is ultimately the one who's making those decisions that's impacting the person at the bottom. So I think first of all, it's all about communication. Something else that we're also pushing for a lot is um a mental health risk assessment. So you basically we need to regularly check a mental employee's mental health. It's not a case of you first arrive and people say, Okay, are you all right? And they say, Yeah, we're all right, and then you're employed for 20 years, and you're meant to assume that they're still just as alright as they were on their first day. Mental health is not linear, it is not just a simple matter of you're diagnosed with this and now you have it forever. It's a complete wave. It's you have your up days, you have your down days, you'll have entire periods where you're fine, you're suddenly not. And for an employer to try and take that responsibility on, we think actually you need to make it mandatory that every quarter or every six months you do a mental health risk assessment, you ask employees to feedback on how they're feeling, if there's events at work, for example, that are impacting them on causing them stress, and do it all on an anonymous basis. But then if you start to see patterns where actually people are saying on a consistent basis, actually I'm working too much or I'm finding it difficult to communicate, my manager is really causing me personal problems. If you're seeing that on a consistent basis, then you know you need to train the managers. Um and I always use the analogy of I remember one day at work they put out a fruit basket in in the middle of the kitchen, and I remember looking at it and I thought, how do you know we don't already eat fruit? Like that's your well-being initiative that you've put out there. Great. How do you know that that's actually going to help us at all and make us healthier or better employees? And actually, that's part of the reason why we try and stress this mental health risk assessment and the open communication, because fixing the problem rather than paying a lot of money to fix a problem that might not even exist.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Oh wow, that is a that is loaded and that is amazing. I love that open communication. Open communication is so important. One of the things that I find is when managers have an open policy of I would say two-way feedback where your employees feel comfortable coming to talk or even talking openly within the team about how they feel or about things that are concerning them, you pick up issues quite quickly and you can deal with them. So open communication is just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I totally agree. And so often you see kind of when, as you say, when things do get escalated to HR, quite often you see suddenly people being like, Well, I didn't even know that was going on. Like I didn't even know that was a problem. Or people asking those managers, how on earth has it got to this stage where you didn't realise that this was such a problem? And I think actually it helps everyone if you can make sure that people are always aware that they can talk about it. And it doesn't have to be talking about your mental health, that can be just talking about outside factors like actually my children aren't very well, or I've got childcare issues at the moment, the nursery's being a bit rubbish, so I just need to make sure I have more time to kind of monitor my children and make sure they're okay. Little things like that are so important and means that actually, if you know what's going on, you can also be more patient with your employees when you know they have issues and be more forgiving, and rather than thinking everything is absolutely fine and expecting the same as of them as you would have normally without realizing that actually there are these other factors that you should be considering and being considerate of.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Gosh, that is so true. You see, because I also find a lot, well, you know, quite a lot of times when I do uh when I go into organizations, I use a I call it the brain mapping diagnostic tool. And a lot of times I speak to a manager and ask them how their teams are, and everything is fine. But when you then get speak to the team, it's things are not fine, but they are not aware that there are problems or issues. And you're so right, it's even just asking the basic things about how are you, how are your children, how are you feeling, how it's home. Those those questions can and listen, it's asking and listening and not just train out how are you and then walking walking off. Yeah, mind as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

But it's funny because if the managers aren't aware there is a problem, that's when the things like mental health risk assessments or having kind of a feedback portal where people can do it on an anonymous basis as well, because then they do know that there's a problem. They don't need to know individually, like it would be great if it would be brilliant if every manager is gonna be like, Oh, yeah, I know Sally. Sally's got her mother's not very well, and know everyone on an individual basis. But some teams are too big, some people just aren't that kind of person. Fine. You still need them to know that actually five of your employees are suicidal. What are you gonna do about that? Or your employees are reporting that they're not getting enough sleep, how can you help that? Or your employees are reporting that actually there's a bunch of managers that aren't making their job any better or any easier. How can you fix that? So, even obviously it would be ideal, and I I would envision a brilliant workplace where everyone knows everyone on a personal level and does all that, but equally there is an element of which you kind of have to have a regular intervals where you check anyway, so that it's not all just on the managers to have that on their personal kind of that have that personal level and connection. Actually, you can say, even though you have no idea who they are, we know on an anonymous basis that these are the problems and this is how we can fix it.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Yeah, I do like that whole concept of the medical health and mental health risk assessment. I think that's really fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

We've got a petition to try and make it legal on our website, so do check it out. Um yeah, we are trying, um, obviously, with everything happening in coronavirus, etc., it's not the top of our list, but we're gonna start trying to push it a bit more again next year. So certainly do have a look.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah, so I would say everyone listening to this, really do have a look because I think the mental health risk assessment will go a long way. And you're right, because there are some uh managers that are not at the place that I would say their emotional intelligence is that high to have that individual interaction, but this would actually, and even if even if you do, even as a high emotional intelligence leader, I think this would really go a long way as well in helping, because you're right, there are people that will work remotely, there are people that you probably will never even see or not even see often. And even if you can't have those conversations virtually with them, this would actually help people open up anonymously, and then you kind of know what's going on because knowing, I would say is really empowering because then you can do something about it. And some people don't really talk about how they feel. And honestly, one thing, another thing is some people don't even realize that they are actually beginning to have mental health issues, anxiety issues. But I think something, this kind of assessment will help them actually stop and think and reflect on how they are feeling and then help them, you know, actually then doing that would actually help them now say, actually, yeah, I do have a problem.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

So I think so important, and actually the reflection piece is so important of actually because it's not obviously I I work a lot on employer-to-employee obligations, fine, but there is a level of personal responsibility. An employer can't be expected to fix all your problems and wave a magic wand. Actually, there's always going to be things that people can do individually, people can do on their own lives and fix their own personal problems or whatever else it is, but actually just taking a moment to reflect and be like, actually, am I okay? I'm constantly telling people I'm okay, but am I okay? And if not, what am I going to do about it? Even if it's just as simple as I'm going to go to the GP or I'm going to start running again, whatever it might be, little things of trying to put that impetus on self-care as well is really important.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is really this is really a good place to um bring this to an end, kind of, because that self reflection is so important. You know, when I teach on emotional intelligence, it's that self awareness, being able to know yourself, understand your feelings, understand your emotions, and then, like you said, do something about it. Speak to a GP, you know, or Go take a walk, take a run, take pick up exercise, watch your diet, pay attention to what is upsetting you, you know, just so that you can actually take that control back and do something about it. So thank you so much, Alicia. So now tell us how would people, if you know, if anyone needs to or needs a lawyer, needs an employment lawyer, or even can refer someone, because you're based in Leeds, if you just tell um our viewers what you do, how they can actually, you know, because you talked about webinars that you run and um other workshops. So if you just tell us how we can get in touch with you, that'll be great.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

So um, even though we're based in Leeds, we work with clients all over the country, anywhere in England and Wales. We we obviously work remotely and work from home, so we're actually not geographically limited on our clients. So if you ever do need any help with um with kind of employment law questions, um we have you can email me at alysia.collinson at thrivemor.co.uk. Go on our website, find us, pop an inquiry in, just say that you've heard me and I'll I'll pick it up within the day. Um, or just look at us on in terms of like following us, seeing what we're doing, looking at our webinars and things. We're we're so active on social media, something else that I think really divides us from other law firms. Um our Instagram probably gets updated like four or five times a day, and it always will have everything that we're doing whenever it is that we're we're doing it. So do give us a follow, follow me as well. I'm Lis Lives Life on Instagram. But yeah, just pick your platform, find us, we'll be there. Um, Jodie also posts a lot of really helpful short videos on employment rights on YouTube, so that's another really good platform to just have a look at. However, it is that you need to take that information in, um it's there.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Awesome. Honestly, you Thrive Law is one law firm. I'll gladly recommend people to recommend my clients to, and because it's you you guys are really one of a kind. There are not many law firms that do what you do, and truly, I really appreciate you, and I'm sure our viewers would really appreciate the work you're doing because mental health is so needed. We really need to help people, empower people to look after their mental health and employers to look after their people's mental health.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

And I think the analogy that you you always put on your own oxygen mask first, you have to look after yourself first and look after other people second, but always try and take care of yourself is my be kind to yourself. That's always my message.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Be kind to yourself. That is that is so true and so great. Thank you so much, Alicia. It's really been a pleasure having you. And I'm going to pop the links down in the description so that you can email Alicia or how to get in touch with the um law firm. And I'll also post the YouTube channel as well so you can um visit and look at the videos or listen, watch the videos. Thank you once again for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Thank you once again for tuning in. And remember that if you haven't subscribed to this podcast, click on the button wherever you listen to it so that you don't miss an episode. And I would really appreciate you leaving a review as well or even a comment on the podcast or ideas of topics that you want me to talk about in future. I've got some exciting episodes coming up with some interesting guests that you really wouldn't want to miss. So, in this climate, wherever you are, do remember to keep safe, look after yourself, and I truly wish you perfect health. Stay limitless and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Bye for now.