SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hey there, Maureen Chana here, founder of the MindSites Academy, neurocoach to executives, leaders, entrepreneurs, and a neuroleadership trainer using insights from neuroscience to help you deliver results by learning to work smarter, be in control of your brain, manage yours and others' emotions, change behaviors, flourish and exceed expectations. Welcome back to another episode of Lead to Excel Podcast. I am so thrilled to be with you today because we have a special guest. But before we get into that, remember to subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to it, because it will help other people find it and give them the opportunity to understand how they can rewire their own brain to enable them to achieve their goals. So without wasting any more time, grab your cup of coffee or your drink or whatever that might be, put your feet up and listen in. Welcome to another episode of Lead to Excel Podcast. And I'm excited today because I have got a really, really special guest. I met this lady recently in Elevate Network. And I just said to myself, I've got to really connect with Caroline. Now we've got Caroline Williams with us. Caroline is a chief learning officer, and I'm actually not going to say much more because, as you will find out, she is just so knowledgeable, so experienced, and she's just amazing. I better stop. So, Caroline, it's such an honor and privilege to have you on this podcast today. So, can you please introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Maureen, thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here. Um, as you mentioned, I'm a chief learning officer. So, what does that big title mean? It just really means that I'm focused on learning and development and just um helping people shift their behaviors to achieve their true potential. So I'm involved in, you know, developing the learning, developing customized curriculum, helping people reach their goals, helping organizations achieve their goals through their people.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Oh, thank you so much. I love that. Helping organizations achieve their goals through people. I know when we got talking, we did kind of talk a bit about looking at diversity. We talked a bit about anti-racism in the workplace. We did talk quite a bit. So today I'm hoping we can touch on quite a few of those things. So, in terms of what you do, what's the main area that you really have found yourself doing more of, or the area that you find really um passionate about doing um recently? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Traditionally, my work has been around leadership development. I'm very passionate about developing emerging leaders. I really like to work with emerging leaders. Um, mostly the middle management layer, that's really my sweet spot. I do work with senior executives, C-suites, and VPs as well. But I like to work with middle management because they're the ones that are uh charged with executing, executing the work that the organization needs to achieve its goals. So traditionally I work on leadership development. So it would be developing skills around how to give feedback, uh, developing skills about how to delegate. And remember, you like my SMARTy uh development, uh, my SMARTy delegation uh uh acronym, which is to make it specific, measurable, meaningful, achievable, actionable, realistic, relevant to the individual, timely, time-bound, and the I for inclusive. Are you are I it's important that managers take the time to delegate to different people, to delegate, be intentional so that these people can develop their skills, develop skills that they that will help them get to the next level, to the next role that they see themselves in. And then the E has always been energizing, that what you're delegating to that individual is something that they buy into. It's something that they want to do, it's something that's interesting for me for them as well. And the E can also stand for evaluated, right? Because you want to provide feedback. It's important that you close that circle. So traditionally it's around those, you know, those supervisory skills, the strategic planning planning skills, those types of things as I normally focus on. And always sort of weaved into my work was diversity, equity, and inclusion. Um, however, over the last year, I've been asked to do more and more of that work, which I find it's very delicate work, uh, it's very traumatic work for you know, for the facilitator as well as the experience of maybe some of the individuals that are going through that, because it may be triggering or bringing up suppressed experiences or things that you know that they just want to set aside because they want to focus on doing their work. And so over the last year in particular, I've been asked to do more and more of that work. And you know what? I'm actually enjoying it. I'm enjoying it because of the fact that I'm people are I I think I've been lucky to come across people that want to learn more. That want to learn more and to want to do that work and and really want to become what I call active allies.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Right?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

You know, allyship is is is on a spectrum, I feel, and and some people they're at passive allyship, they say they're an ally, but let's look at the action. So I'm lucky that I've come across people that really want to focus on being active allies.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Wow, thanks so much, Caroline. You touched on quite a few things actually that I'm going to get us to dig a bit more into. And coming back to what you said originally, you work more with middle managers. Why did you actually decide to work more with middle managers? Because sometimes you have the argument that when you work with the senior managers, they can be more influential on middle managers. And I think the other question is: do you find that when you work with middle managers, they are actually able to implement when the senior managers have a completely different outlook of view?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, so that's that's a really uh good question because I I face both of those situations. So one of the reasons why I prefer to work with middle managers is because really they're charged with the execution of the will or the direction of the organization. And I feel that if they don't buy in, if they're not aligned with what's coming from the top, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. But I also feel that generally I've come across middle managers that want to do a good job. They want to be good managers, right? And I'm very concerned about the experience that employees have in organizations. And I think that, you know, when you look at organizational cultures, if you have middle managers that are really focused on their people and managing and leading their people in a way that is received well, that uh that supports a strong empowerment culture, then that's that's going to benefit the employees as well. So that's one of the reasons I like to work with middle managers. But secondly, I know I've had this feedback sometimes when I work with middle managers and and um I'm training them and coaching them and providing support about how to provide feedback. And they're like, Well, I don't get any feedback from my manager. Or if I work with middle managers on how to have a performance conversation, they're like, Well, I haven't had a performance review. So it's it's it's very tricky, and sometimes they are, I don't know, for lack of a better word, maybe disillusioned that they're expected to do things the right way, where at times they're not getting that, so they're not getting that modeled what they're expected to model. And so sometimes it's a that's a bit problematic. Um, I think there's more of them, and I think that if you don't have that group of uh folks working uh effectively, if there isn't any efficacy in their output, then it can be very detrimental to an organization.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense, actually. And I agree with you. I think one of the um biggest issues, and I think you what you touched on is that they want to do a great job. Most of them want to do a great job, and being able to really equip them to do that effectively, irrespective of what's happening from above, would go a long way to make such a difference. And have you come across or how have you dealt with situations where the middle managers themselves, as much as they uh they they get the training, they get all the you know everything that they need, but they still struggle to get the team involved and also because so they're struggling basically with walking downwards and walking, you know, um walking above, you know, so being able to be influential above and being able to be influential um below. How do you find how do you how are you able to really empower people like that to really be you know make that shift to be able to do both?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

I think you know, one of the things I've realized over the last 50 years, 15 years, I almost said 50, those 15 years that I've been doing this, is that when training is modular, yeah, it's it's more effective, right? So if you if you put, you know, most of the people that come into middle management, some of them it's great when they are promoted internally, but sometimes they're not given the support to help them be successful in that role. So they do the best that they can, right? Now having a training in one day and expecting that they're gonna be able to execute all of those things covered in one day is not realistic. And so I really prefer and I've seen results with a modular approach where you have the training, um, maybe a half day, I prefer half day sessions, and then you know, they're go they go away and do something, they come back, they can inform what scenarios are. And if it's modular and run over and runs over maybe like six to 12 months, then you see the shift because then they're supported. Then they're like, oh, Caroline, you know, what do you do in this situation? And can we have a scenario that deals with this? Can we do some skills practice around this? So then the custom training becomes really customized to help them in the moment deal with what they need to deal with. And furthermore, when it's spread over a year, you've actually gone through the business cycle, right? So you're helping and supporting them through, you know, one-on-ones, uh, performance conversations, possibly, you know, if they have to terminate an employee, all of that stuff is happening over the course of the year. So I think that having a modular approach, I I refer, I say a slow drip, is important because it's also a change management thing, right? And the other thing is, even though people may have the really good intentions of doing something, the problem is under stress, they revert to their instinctual behavior, right? So this is your playing field here with the neurolearning leadership, right? So it's about helping them self-manage, manage as well, so that they can notice when they're being triggered, calm themselves down so that they can be resourceful to, you know, to connect to their uh neofrontal cortex and you know, all that reasoning and and and um planning capability that they have. So that's why I think it needs to go out longer because otherwise they forget it. They forget it.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

And and I also find, you know, having the training on maybe like a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday, it matters, right? Rather than having it Monday morning or rather than having it Friday. So it's just little things like that I've learned over the years to support individuals.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

That is amazing. I kept nodding and nodding and nodding while you were saying that, because that is it's so true. And it's an it's something I just want organizations to hear. Because a lot of times, you know, they bring trainers in and go, okay, I want you to deliver this training in one day or deliver it this half day, or it, and it doesn't work because the the help that these managers or team needs would happen as life evolves, as situations come up, and that's where people like both of us in terms of what we do come in more useful to enable them to embed that learning. So I totally agree with you that it has to be modular. So, you know, well done. You know, when you are saying it, I just couldn't stop nodding. I'm going spot on. And it and it's true what you said. When you actually give people information, it really is information in the brain. The time it becomes embedded is when things are triggered and they're able to implement that information, use that knowledge, you know, actual actually practicalize it in a way, that's when the deep learning takes place. So, no, thank you so much for that.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

And they need the opportunity, the repetition, right? The repetition so that it becomes internalized. And then after the program, follow-up coaching. I mean, you and I are in the business of learning and development, but sometimes when organizations bring us in, it is not necessarily a learning and development issue. Because as I said, we have to look at, okay, where's the performance gap to try and figure out what is causing this performance gap? Is it skill or is it will? And if it's will, then it's a leadership issue, it's a culture issue, it's something else. So we need to make sure that we have the appropriate solution, right? And and and I also think that um to your point about how do we get the middle management to do to support them, there needs to be some follow-up and accountability from their immediate supervisor, right? So I like to loop the immediate supervisor in so that they know, okay, this is what training that Caroline went through. We covered this, this, and this. Here's the homework that Caroline has. I want you to look out for these changes. Even with coaching, I mean, you and I both provide coaching. We only interact with our client. We don't necessarily see what they're doing, right? So that's why you need to loop in their immediate supervisor to provide them feedback when we're not there.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Exactly. Oh, wow. No, thank you so much for that. Quite a lot of nuggets there. Awesome. Now, I'm going to move us a bit away into what we discussed when we had a chat. You're smarty. I know you did touch on it briefly, but I want you to actually go into it again because I think it's amazing. Now, you when we had a chat, you talked about how you actually use it when you're doing the training. Can you just go through that just to really get people go? So go through the acronym, what it means, but how you actually use it. An example of a situation whereby you use this MATES and all that. So I'll let you uh touch on that because that is great.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

The SMART acronym is out there. This is nothing new, right? Um, however, the fact is people learn this and they've gone through many courses that have had it, and they and they don't really necessarily apply it. And how I how I teach the SMARTy method is I actually provide a template that asks questions. So when you're doing the S for specific, I actually have questions that you should be asking yourself to make sure that whatever you're choosing is really specific. Um, and then measurable, and then I have questions for that as well. So I have this template that walks them through the entire thing. And when we get to the I for inclusive, it is is this someone that's that um you don't traditionally go through? Is this someone that's underrepresented? Is this someone that normally does this type of work? Because equally with the SMARTy is this idea of um, as I said, you know, when it comes to work and jobs, 70% of the work that's on your job description is, you know, the typical work that needs to happen. 20% of it is um, you know, work that needs to happen, it's a bit mundane, it's a bit repetitive, but it needs to happen. But 10% of the work in the workplace are those high-profile opportunities, those opportunities that allows you to build new skills, have visibility. Um, I want to make sure that when people delegate, when they look at that eye for inclusive, they're looking at am I being fair in giving everybody an equal opportunity at that 10%?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

And am I being, am I overly delegating that 20% to the same people all the time? Right? And then the E for energizing is around the fact that this is something that's interesting to that person, that they want to do this, right? Because to me it should be a delegation conversation, not about here, Caroline, do this. Is Caroline, what are you know, I've noticed that you're good about this and you expressed interest last week in doing this. And so I thought maybe you'd be interested in taking on this task, right? It's a conversation, right? And and when you delegate, you're letting the person know what you saw in them, what's the rationale for you delegating them? It's not gonna be for everything, but for specific things around their skill development. So let's say, for example, you know, when they did you had your performance conversation, you said, you know, or they identified, I want to build these skills and say you can say then when you're delegated, remember when you talked about this, I think doing this is gonna help you build that skill. Help them connect the dots. Yeah, help them realize that yes, you are you are focused on their success. You remember, you heard them when they said they wanted to work on this, and this is why you're being intentional to delegate this.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Wow, that is amazing. And you see, because once they do that, it just shows that they care, and the people that they're working with will now that builds trust as well. So that is amazing. I'm gonna touch on two things. You said questions. You said when you're doing when you start, for example, with specific, you start with questions, questions that they ask, and that is amazing because you see, once you start using questions or start with questions, what you're doing is engaging their brain instantly so they connect, it becomes real to them. It's no more passive information that comes in and goes out, it really has meaning. So I I just love that. And coming back, coming to the eye in Smarting, I just love Smarting. When I heard it, I went, please, can I use this? Can I have done this? Oh, it's amazing. Now, especially when you talk about inclusivity when delegating, and I think that is a powerful one because that is where a lot of times we miss out on the on including people. And you just being able to think about the eye, I think is just you know massive. And it brings me to the issue of biases, because this is where this actually makes sense. How do you find, because a lot of times we found that you know a lot of training has been given on biases that don't work. Now, and I know you use this, Matty. How do you actually help or help organizations in terms of the bias on conscious bias training, actually help them embed it so that it becomes real, so that it's no more just unconscious bias training, but training that will truly have an impact on what they're doing that will actually bring about change that is that they can see that is evident, that is measurable.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

So, you know, when it comes to unconscious bias, um, the work I do is it deals with unconscious bias in two ways. One is in the normal spectra of DEI and diversity, um, equity, inclusion, and belonging work. And then the other place that I deal with it is when we talk about evaluating employee performance because there's a whole range of biases that are actually possible there. So the unconscious biases is around you know how you attribute why someone doesn't do something versus why someone did something. I think that the thing with unconscious bias work is really let people know that it's not bad that you have biases. You're not a bad person. It's our brain that helps us create this because our brain wants to be efficient. So I think you need to really take the time to explain why bias happened, how we're programmed with bias. And it's really to get people to step back and observe themselves in action or observe their past action, right? I believe unconscious bias training, if if you if you if it's done in a manner that makes people be defensive, then it's going to fail. Absolutely. Right. It has to be done in a manner to explain how the brain does this, why the brain does this, and how you can interrupt it. Right? We do this all the time. It's because our brain wants us to be efficient, right? But the brain is wrong. And we need to understand the input sources of bias, that even though when we're awoken to our bias, we're still getting the stimulants. That if we're not actively observing or questioning our own behavior, we will go back and do it. Absolutely. Right? It's a pattern, right? So it's really about trying to get people to be reflective, right? And to think about, okay, what happened? You know, did did try to get people to think about before an interaction or before a meeting or before a conversation, what do you want to be the output of that conversation? And if you think like that, then after it happens, then you step back and think, okay, so what really happened? And what are the reasons for that? What did I say? What could I have done differently? So I think that's really important that everybody, not just managers, but everybody engages in this because unconscious bias is not just a workplace thing. Unconscious bias happens in our families, right? Why is it that you allow one child to do this and the other child not to do this?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Right? Unconscious bias is everywhere. So I think we need to broaden the impact of unconscious bias and not just make it seem like it's a bad thing that happens in the workplace, but it's something that plays out in every aspect of our lives. It's something that plays out in how we're treated when we're on the other end of maybe being a client or a customer or whatever, or being a spouse or a partner. Unconscious bias impacts everybody, everywhere. So that's why it's important to understand what it is, the different forms of it, the bias, how to interrupt it, and how to go back and repair. Right? That's the other thing. If you become aware that a decision you took was uh impacted by your own bias, and now you're aware of it, what is wrong with going back and repairing that by saying, Caroline, I realize that when I said this, it was because of this, and I apologize. What's wrong with that? I I encourage people to try it to go back and repair, right? Because it's important that managers model that they make mistakes too, right? And it's important if you want to have a workplace with with high psychological safety, that means that all leaders, no matter where they are, all people have to be comfortable enough and take the time to say, you know what, I made a mistake, I realize it now, and I'm sorry. And when you say I'm sorry, when you say I'm sorry, it's I'm sorry that I did this, not just I'm sorry, be specific. What specifically are you now aware that you did that you want to to acknowledge and ask to be forgiven for? Right? So be specific.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Be specific. I love that. And it's being specific about what you're sorry about. Oh, I love it. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Because sometimes people people apologize, but they they apologize in such a manner. I'm sorry if you were offended. That seems to me like exactly, exactly. So I think that um it's important for managers to show that vulnerability. I think it's important for managers to focus on developing people, not just getting people to do things. Yeah. Oh, wow. Show them that they care.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yeah, sure. And that they're human, that you are human, they are human, and you're dealing with human beings. So, no, thank you. Wow, that's amazing. That's great. I love the fact that you talked on being reflective, Shelley, with being reflective in things you do, what how you do it, and it still brings me back to your smarty that I honestly, I love the smarty, and I'm gonna go ahead. When you're delegating, it's actually be it being reflective about how you're delegating, what you're saying, what project or task you're giving the person to do. And that's part of the awareness of biases, just to make question yourself when you're giving out things, it's so important. Oh wow, no, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

It's specific in uh sorry, Maria, it's specific in identifying the task, but it's specific in matching the task to the right person, being very intentional about that. I think is really important.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah, oh wow, no, thank you. I want you to just help us define diversity, inclusivity, and belonging.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

I've been thinking about that, and I came up with something, building on something that's already well established out there. Yeah. Diversity is ensuring that there's all different people at the party. Equity is asking everyone else to dance, inclusion might be asking them what music they want to hear. But belonging, you know, belonging is there is when they stay till the end of the party. Oh, wow. Because by on their own, because what often happens is people are invited, but they don't feel comfortable. So they stay for enough time to show face and to let people know they were there, and then they leave because they don't really feel like they belong. And I think a really good example of that is um that picture of Franklin, you know, the peanuts um comics, right? So there was a lady that really advocated for many years to get uh Schultz to add a black character amongst the peanuts cast. And so they they they invited Franklin. Franklin was the the new member. So there's this this picture that is used often in the DEI work of the Thanksgiving when Franklin is there, but Franklin's the is the black child, and he's the only one on the side of the table. Everybody else is on the other side, which signals okay, we have to have you here, but we really don't want you here, so you stay over there by yourself. So belonging for me is the fact when that pre- person, that individual, chooses to stay because they feel welcome, they feel they feel that others want them there. So that's why we got to focus on belonging. Because when we attract people to the organization that are diverse, education, thought, all the dimensions of diversity, age, all of those dimensions of diversity, then middle managers, they're the ones that really have to focus on retaining them, right? Yeah, and then developing them and then helping them belong, helping them feel that they belong. And also if they notice that other members in the team are not helping them belong, feel that they belong through microaggressions, having the managerial courage to deal with those situations, yes, right? Because that's the thing, sometimes people see it and they hope it will go away, or they tell themselves a story, oh, it's not that bad, right? But managers have to have the courage to deal with these situations.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

I like that they have to have the courage to deal with it. And you're right, you have managers that see it and turn a blind eye because they feel, oh, maybe they didn't mean it that way. Maybe they didn't mean to say it that way. But the fact is that you're um looking at it from that person's perspective, what of the impact it has on the person, on the recipient, basically. So I think that's exactly, right? Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

And and I say to manager, see it, know it, say it. If you see it, you know it's wrong, you know it's against the company's values, yeah, right? Because those values on the wall, they don't happen. It's it's behaviors, right? So, what are those behaviors that are acceptable? And if the behavior is uncivil, then you as a manager need to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, wow, that is that is so true. That is so true. That is so true, and so important, so important. Oh, Caroline, thank you so much. I think we've touched on quite a bit here, and I know we are getting almost to the we are actually at the end. If not, this will go on for too long. But I'm definitely going to have you back on to really touch on all that, you know, because there are things that we talked about today, which I really would want to go more into, like feedback. I think feedback is an important one, how it's given, especially for middle managers, linking it with what we've just talked about, um, in terms of actually making people feel they belong. I think it's something, it's it's we need an episode for that on its own because it's so important. But I just hope that listeners that can take away so much to really go back with and use for your benefit in terms of how you lead, what you say, how you make people feel. Your role as a manager, your role as a leader, but your role as an individual as well, being part of a team, what you do, because I always say everyone is a leader. So whether you're a team member, whether you're a manager, a leader, your everyone is a leader and has a responsibility for everyone around them. So thank you, Caroline. So at the end now, can you just give our listeners one final nugget, advice, tip, anything that you want to leave us with?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

So I think um that leadership is not an event, it's an everyday thing, right? It's an everyday thing. It's not that something happens. All these leadership behaviors are something that you should be practicing every day. So don't look for an event that says, I now need to be a leader.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

It's everyday. I love that. It's not an event, it's a behavior. It's a behavior. Oh wow, no, that's a good one to end with. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you once again for being on Lead to Excel Podcast. It's really an honor having you here. And I do look forward to part two. We are coming back. I've got to have you back on to continue this conversation. Thank you so much, Caroline. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. So, Caroline, where can our listeners find you? So you can share your LinkedIn profile or if there are courses that you run or anything that relates to you where they can find you and just know what you do.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Okay, so I am on LinkedIn. Uh, you can reach out to me uh on LinkedIn. So it's Caroline Williams. And if you look for Toronto, because I'm located in Toronto, Canada, my website will is um Spark Training and Coaching Associates. So it's www.sparktac.com. So you can find all the courses and things that we do there. But I I do customized work. So basically, clients come to me and say, this is the behavior, this is the gap, and what what's and we work together to find a solution. So if you don't see something that you like there, just reach out and ask. So look me up on LinkedIn. I'm not really active on LinkedIn, I'm a bit of a lurker, but I do get the notification. So if you want to reach out on LinkedIn, I'll be happy to connect.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Yes, if you want to connect with Caroline, reach out to her on LinkedIn. But also, I'm gonna put the link to the website in the description so you can see the different training that's offered by the organization. So thank you again. Yes, you want to.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

One other thing is if you know, oh, I've been lucky. I've been very fortunate because over the last year, uh, you know, normally I do in-person training, but I've been doing Zoom training for about three years. And so I do a lot of this virtually. So I'm everywhere, really. I can be everywhere to support individuals. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yeah, that's great. So virtual training, in-person training, she's your lady if you need it as well. So thank you. Thanks, Caroline. And like I said, I'm gonna put all that in the description as well. So thank you. Okay, three things before we finish today. Have you subscribed to this podcast? If you haven't, make sure you click that subscribe button wherever you listen to this podcast. Because once you subscribe, you will not miss an episode. And as usual, if you have a topic you would love me to speak about or bring a guest on, do let me know by leaving a review. Finally, do have a fantastic week. And remember that you are limitless. So I look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Bye for now.